2014 Muchmore AARCMCC Australian National E.P. On Road Titles - November 13th to 17th
11-17-2014, 11:49 PM
#227
Facing rain delays is never something the race director nor the state delegates want to see.
We were faced with chasing a result on the Sunday where there would have been a bigger field, or having some racing Sunday and a rain day on the Monday.
We were fortunate the weather cleared up (ps Old Smokey I told you it would
) and we were able to run the last couple of races in the fourth round of qualifying.
With the track dry and rain continuing to be a threat, I changed the order to have the sanctioned classes first, moving F1 to the end of the round and pushed ahead with the finals.
We managed to get 3 legs for all As, two legs for all Be and one leg for all Cs.
It was a great weekend of racing by all and a huge thank you to all the volunteers.
We were faced with chasing a result on the Sunday where there would have been a bigger field, or having some racing Sunday and a rain day on the Monday.
We were fortunate the weather cleared up (ps Old Smokey I told you it would
) and we were able to run the last couple of races in the fourth round of qualifying. With the track dry and rain continuing to be a threat, I changed the order to have the sanctioned classes first, moving F1 to the end of the round and pushed ahead with the finals.
We managed to get 3 legs for all As, two legs for all Be and one leg for all Cs.
It was a great weekend of racing by all and a huge thank you to all the volunteers.
Last edited by ford_racing; 11-17-2014 at 11:52 PM. Reason: spelling...
11-18-2014, 12:09 AM
#228
I wasn't there and I am in no way having a go at the event itself as it sounds like given the conditions it ran like clockwork. With TJ at the controls you know your going to have a good event. The rules on the other hand are vague at best. As a competitor who likes to travel this discussions and any subsequent action may determine whether I bother to travel to a big event again. Maybe we should start a new thread or crank up the farcmarc thread..
One question, was the weather nice in Canberra on Monday?
The way I read the rules I would have been expecting to run on Monday if I was there. Isn't the rain day there so the event can get a result from 4 of 6 qualifiers and 2 of 3 finals no matter what the weather? I read it as saying every competitor should plan for a Monday rain day in case it's needed. I had planned to travel and I would have anticipated the Monday rain day and had accom and flights booked for Monday night.
I would be with Gav here and be confused/pee'd off as to why the rain day wasn't used as you expect for the most important event of the year that you would run 6 qualifiers to sort the men from the boys. It's a glorified club day run on a wet,inconsistent track otherwise. Let's not take anything away from Alex's win as it's never easy to win the Nats, but that's how the results look from over here. Rocket round would have been a better spread of the field looking at the qualifying times.
2012 in QLD was worse. Worst event I've been to. Better rules would have helped there too... Let's not open wounds.
It's good to see a healthy discussion on this already and it looks like Daniel is already working on a resolution. Let's hope something comes of this.
One question, was the weather nice in Canberra on Monday?
The way I read the rules I would have been expecting to run on Monday if I was there. Isn't the rain day there so the event can get a result from 4 of 6 qualifiers and 2 of 3 finals no matter what the weather? I read it as saying every competitor should plan for a Monday rain day in case it's needed. I had planned to travel and I would have anticipated the Monday rain day and had accom and flights booked for Monday night.
I would be with Gav here and be confused/pee'd off as to why the rain day wasn't used as you expect for the most important event of the year that you would run 6 qualifiers to sort the men from the boys. It's a glorified club day run on a wet,inconsistent track otherwise. Let's not take anything away from Alex's win as it's never easy to win the Nats, but that's how the results look from over here. Rocket round would have been a better spread of the field looking at the qualifying times.
2012 in QLD was worse. Worst event I've been to. Better rules would have helped there too... Let's not open wounds.
It's good to see a healthy discussion on this already and it looks like Daniel is already working on a resolution. Let's hope something comes of this.
11-18-2014, 12:33 AM
#229
Tech Master
iTrader: (17)
1
I wasn't there and I am in no way having a go at the event itself as it sounds like given the conditions it ran like clockwork. With TJ at the controls you know your going to have a good event. The rules on the other hand are vague at best. As a competitor who likes to travel this discussions and any subsequent action may determine whether I bother to travel to a big event again. Maybe we should start a new thread or crank up the farcmarc thread..
One question, was the weather nice in Canberra on Monday?
The way I read the rules I would have been expecting to run on Monday if I was there. Isn't the rain day there so the event can get a result from 4 of 6 qualifiers and 2 of 3 finals no matter what the weather? I read it as saying every competitor should plan for a Monday rain day in case it's needed. I had planned to travel and I would have anticipated the Monday rain day and had accom and flights booked for Monday night.
I would be with Gav here and be confused/pee'd off as to why the rain day wasn't used as you expect for the most important event of the year that you would run 6 qualifiers to sort the men from the boys. It's a glorified club day run on a wet,inconsistent track otherwise. Let's not take anything away from Alex's win as it's never easy to win the Nats, but that's how the results look from over here. Rocket round would have been a better spread of the field looking at the qualifying times.
2012 in QLD was worse. Worst event I've been to. Better rules would have helped there too... Let's not open wounds.
It's good to see a healthy discussion on this already and it looks like Daniel is already working on a resolution. Let's hope something comes of this.
One question, was the weather nice in Canberra on Monday?
The way I read the rules I would have been expecting to run on Monday if I was there. Isn't the rain day there so the event can get a result from 4 of 6 qualifiers and 2 of 3 finals no matter what the weather? I read it as saying every competitor should plan for a Monday rain day in case it's needed. I had planned to travel and I would have anticipated the Monday rain day and had accom and flights booked for Monday night.
I would be with Gav here and be confused/pee'd off as to why the rain day wasn't used as you expect for the most important event of the year that you would run 6 qualifiers to sort the men from the boys. It's a glorified club day run on a wet,inconsistent track otherwise. Let's not take anything away from Alex's win as it's never easy to win the Nats, but that's how the results look from over here. Rocket round would have been a better spread of the field looking at the qualifying times.
2012 in QLD was worse. Worst event I've been to. Better rules would have helped there too... Let's not open wounds.
It's good to see a healthy discussion on this already and it looks like Daniel is already working on a resolution. Let's hope something comes of this.
I understand that not everyone can afford the time off work but it is the Nationals and needs to be treated with that respect. It is always bidded for and advertised as a four day event so maybe the rules need to be reconfigured as to represent this
11-18-2014, 01:15 AM
#230
My two cents
First: the club and all the volunteers did a fantastic job and should be congratulated.
Second: it would be great to provide clarity in the rules about being able to 'call the event' after 4 rounds of quali.
If this had occurred it would have been a real shame as it's the big one. (Nats)
My preference would have been to race the full schedule and use the Monday. The race meeting included it as part of the scheduled dates. I travelled from interstate and had organised leave from work and accommodation when we planned the trip, expecting to be in Canberra regardless of whether racing was finished.
The stock A final third round was awesome!
M Juttner
Second: it would be great to provide clarity in the rules about being able to 'call the event' after 4 rounds of quali.
If this had occurred it would have been a real shame as it's the big one. (Nats)
My preference would have been to race the full schedule and use the Monday. The race meeting included it as part of the scheduled dates. I travelled from interstate and had organised leave from work and accommodation when we planned the trip, expecting to be in Canberra regardless of whether racing was finished.
The stock A final third round was awesome!
M Juttner
11-18-2014, 01:51 AM
#231
Tech Apprentice
[QUOTE=Radio Active;13664836]There isn't actually a contradiction (though it's not especially clear, and of course the RD can consult with the Jury if they wish). The bit about consultation with the State Jury is there because the Race Director doesn't have the power to reduce the number of heats to less than 4 without their permission. The RD does have the power to unilaterally reduce the number of heats to 5 or 4.
If it is not a contradiction then please explain how the RD is able to excises this rule. When as you state he does not have the authority to reduce the qualifying rounds.
7.3.4 If weather and time permit and there is no time restriction on track use, every endeavour should be made by the Race Director to run as many of the maximum six rounds of qualifying heats as possible.
In the current rule set I am unable to find any reference where the State Jury is able to reduce heats below 4 qualifiers.
In rule 6.9.10 the minimum number of qualifiers for a State or National is 4. No lower.
With your view on the rain day being used as a last resort. My suggestion to fix this is for State Titles is to have no rain day. Which means if the event is interrupted by weather then at the end of the final scheduled day the meeting can be called at what ever stage the meeting is at.
With the National titles I am with everyone else. All qualifiers & all A finals should be run. This is the big one for the year and should be given the respect it deserves as a National Event. The only time the RD or State Jury can reduce qualifiers is during the rain day itself, so as to achieve the running of the A Finals.
Granted people are not always able to get the leave to cover the event. However it then comes down to personal choice of whether to attend or not.
Those who do attend the event with the attitude that the rain day could come into effect, have paid their entry fees, and organised accommodation should also have the opportunity to run all qualifiers and finals.
Instead of as a first resort is to reduce the qualifiers to keep as many of the competitors to stay.
Again this is in now way disrespect for those who made the decisions on the weekend. They did a fantastic job and work within the parameters of the rules.
Ford-Racing you were correct when it came to the weather.
If it is not a contradiction then please explain how the RD is able to excises this rule. When as you state he does not have the authority to reduce the qualifying rounds.
7.3.4 If weather and time permit and there is no time restriction on track use, every endeavour should be made by the Race Director to run as many of the maximum six rounds of qualifying heats as possible.
In the current rule set I am unable to find any reference where the State Jury is able to reduce heats below 4 qualifiers.
In rule 6.9.10 the minimum number of qualifiers for a State or National is 4. No lower.
With your view on the rain day being used as a last resort. My suggestion to fix this is for State Titles is to have no rain day. Which means if the event is interrupted by weather then at the end of the final scheduled day the meeting can be called at what ever stage the meeting is at.
With the National titles I am with everyone else. All qualifiers & all A finals should be run. This is the big one for the year and should be given the respect it deserves as a National Event. The only time the RD or State Jury can reduce qualifiers is during the rain day itself, so as to achieve the running of the A Finals.
Granted people are not always able to get the leave to cover the event. However it then comes down to personal choice of whether to attend or not.
Those who do attend the event with the attitude that the rain day could come into effect, have paid their entry fees, and organised accommodation should also have the opportunity to run all qualifiers and finals.
Instead of as a first resort is to reduce the qualifiers to keep as many of the competitors to stay.
Again this is in now way disrespect for those who made the decisions on the weekend. They did a fantastic job and work within the parameters of the rules.
Ford-Racing you were correct when it came to the weather.
Last edited by Old Smokey; 11-18-2014 at 02:03 AM.
11-18-2014, 03:21 AM
#233
Show off 
One thing I didn't predict (but should have expected) was just how close the racing was going to be. For many of the qualifiers (haven't done all the analysis yet), the top dozen drivers in Stock were less than half a lap apart. Somewhere around 4 seconds separated 3rd through 11th. The results in 21.5 looked pretty close too, based on the number of tied points.
A bit of a wobble was quite costly!
On the funny side, the choosing of Ride R1's in F1 for the first qualifier and first final was a bit of a chuckle.
One thing I didn't predict (but should have expected) was just how close the racing was going to be. For many of the qualifiers (haven't done all the analysis yet), the top dozen drivers in Stock were less than half a lap apart. Somewhere around 4 seconds separated 3rd through 11th. The results in 21.5 looked pretty close too, based on the number of tied points.
A bit of a wobble was quite costly!
On the funny side, the choosing of Ride R1's in F1 for the first qualifier and first final was a bit of a chuckle.
11-18-2014, 03:48 AM
#235
If it is not a contradiction then please explain how the RD is able to excises this rule. When as you state he does not have the authority to reduce the qualifying rounds.
7.3.4 If weather and time permit and there is no time restriction on track use, every endeavour should be made by the Race Director to run as many of the maximum six rounds of qualifying heats as possible.
In the current rule set I am unable to find any reference where the State Jury is able to reduce heats below 4 qualifiers.
In rule 6.9.10 the minimum number of qualifiers for a State or National is 4. No lower.
7.3.4 If weather and time permit and there is no time restriction on track use, every endeavour should be made by the Race Director to run as many of the maximum six rounds of qualifying heats as possible.
In the current rule set I am unable to find any reference where the State Jury is able to reduce heats below 4 qualifiers.
In rule 6.9.10 the minimum number of qualifiers for a State or National is 4. No lower.
Now I can see why there is so much confusion. The minimum number in the note has been increased from 3 to 4 without any other changes being made to the wording.
It used to be that clearer that between 4 and 6 heats could be scheduled originally. And that that could be reduced to 3 with State Jury Permission, or reduced from 6 or 5 to 4 by the RD alone.
Now that the number in the note has been upped from 3 to 4, it's not clear when the Jury needs to be consulted as opposed to when the RD can make the decision themselves.
I would suggest, based on past precedent and the current wording that the RD could reduce from 6 to 5 without consultation, but to go to 4 they would need to consult the jury.
11-18-2014, 04:11 AM
#236
With your view on the rain day being used as a last resort. My suggestion to fix this is for State Titles is to have no rain day. Which means if the event is interrupted by weather then at the end of the final scheduled day the meeting can be called at what ever stage the meeting is at.
With the National titles I am with everyone else. All qualifiers & all A finals should be run. This is the big one for the year and should be given the respect it deserves as a National Event. The only time the RD or State Jury can reduce qualifiers is during the rain day itself, so as to achieve the running of the A Finals.
Granted people are not always able to get the leave to cover the event. However it then comes down to personal choice of whether to attend or not.
Those who do attend the event with the attitude that the rain day could come into effect, have paid their entry fees, and organised accommodation should also have the opportunity to run all qualifiers and finals.
Instead of as a first resort is to reduce the qualifiers to keep as many of the competitors to stay.
Again this is in now way disrespect for those who made the decisions on the weekend. They did a fantastic job and work within the parameters of the rules.
Ford-Racing you were correct when it came to the weather.
With the National titles I am with everyone else. All qualifiers & all A finals should be run. This is the big one for the year and should be given the respect it deserves as a National Event. The only time the RD or State Jury can reduce qualifiers is during the rain day itself, so as to achieve the running of the A Finals.
Granted people are not always able to get the leave to cover the event. However it then comes down to personal choice of whether to attend or not.
Those who do attend the event with the attitude that the rain day could come into effect, have paid their entry fees, and organised accommodation should also have the opportunity to run all qualifiers and finals.
Instead of as a first resort is to reduce the qualifiers to keep as many of the competitors to stay.
Again this is in now way disrespect for those who made the decisions on the weekend. They did a fantastic job and work within the parameters of the rules.
Ford-Racing you were correct when it came to the weather.
Look at F1, less than 1/4 distance and nobody gets any points, and if they don't get to 3/4 distance they don't award any points.
Otherwise, I acknowledge that neither direction to go with regards to the Rain Day is inherently right. They are simply different ways of looking at it. I offer the following two points to consider:
1) IFMAR recently changed their rules to emphasise that the possibility of rain is a normal part of a race day, and that drivers should be prepared to meet looser conditions as a result of that. If you change the rules to make the use of the rain day the normal thing to do, we'll end up out of step with IFMAR on this because RD's will be inclined to wait much longer before resuming racing, knowing that they've got a whole extra day they don't otherwise need.
2) In many situations you'll be turning an extra half day into an extra full day. Whereas many people can get home with an extra half day after completing the last heat and finals on the morning of a rain day of last resort. A significant number of them won't be able to get home if it becomes a full day. This will in effect add an extra day to the meet for planning purposes and result in fewer entries (especially in populous states).
3) Often when you have rain at the end of a weekend it will rain all day Monday too. At the moment it's possible to dump the last 2 heats on the basis of a weather forecast and go straight to finals. But under the system you propose you couldn't do that. Then if Monday is washed out you'll not have run any finals and have to call it on qualifying.
4) If you don't allow any cutting of the program before the Rain Day you could well end up having to turn up Monday morning just to run the 3rd Final.
5) Having done many Offroad and Onroad State and National Championships where Offroad runs 4 heats, and Onroad runs 6. Those extra 2 heats do nothing to add to the enjoyment of the meeting for me, and rarely do anything for my qualifying spot - a 2 position move at most typically. I'm sure others have a similar experience. If we were loosing 2 finals from a 5 final set instead I might care more. But I really don't want to have to stick around an extra day just so I can do 1 or 2 more lots of racing against the clock. I travel to race other people, the prospect of having to more often wait till Monday to do that doesn't thrill me.
11-18-2014, 12:42 PM
#237
We had some new AARCMCC reps elected on the weekend and I know 1 especially loves racing and cares about the racers. I also know everything has been let go with a few trying to do their best maybe a concerted effort tackling 1 thing at a time after they have prioritized the things to be done and they will get things sorted. My thing the first thing would be the rules.
But it can not be done overnight, take our time and do it write so it is done properly. But the biggest thing is not EVERYONE will be happy they never are.
Noel
But it can not be done overnight, take our time and do it write so it is done properly. But the biggest thing is not EVERYONE will be happy they never are.
Noel
11-18-2014, 02:44 PM
#238
We had some new AARCMCC reps elected on the weekend and I know 1 especially loves racing and cares about the racers. I also know everything has been let go with a few trying to do their best maybe a concerted effort tackling 1 thing at a time after they have prioritized the things to be done and they will get things sorted. My thing the first thing would be the rules.
But it can not be done overnight, take our time and do it write so it is done properly. But the biggest thing is not EVERYONE will be happy they never are.
Noel
But it can not be done overnight, take our time and do it write so it is done properly. But the biggest thing is not EVERYONE will be happy they never are.
Noel
That's far to an open statement for me to interpret.
Just about everything is 'the rules'.
11-18-2014, 03:15 PM
#239
Tech Apprentice
[QUOTE=Radio Active;13665081]
1) IFMAR recently changed their rules to emphasise that the possibility of rain is a normal part of a race day, and that drivers should be prepared to meet looser conditions as a result of that. If you change the rules to make the use of the rain day the normal thing to do, we'll end up out of step with IFMAR on this because RD's will be inclined to wait much longer before resuming racing, knowing that they've got a whole extra day they don't otherwise need.
If you read the IFMAR rule in its entirety they do state that rain and rain shows are a natural part of outdoor racing and only extreme condition should stop racing.
It then refers to another rule that should this situation occur the use of and availability rain tyres be used. (They do not have a rain day.)
Either way this is going to be a circular discussion.
1) IFMAR recently changed their rules to emphasise that the possibility of rain is a normal part of a race day, and that drivers should be prepared to meet looser conditions as a result of that. If you change the rules to make the use of the rain day the normal thing to do, we'll end up out of step with IFMAR on this because RD's will be inclined to wait much longer before resuming racing, knowing that they've got a whole extra day they don't otherwise need.
If you read the IFMAR rule in its entirety they do state that rain and rain shows are a natural part of outdoor racing and only extreme condition should stop racing.
It then refers to another rule that should this situation occur the use of and availability rain tyres be used. (They do not have a rain day.)
Either way this is going to be a circular discussion.
Last edited by Old Smokey; 11-18-2014 at 03:48 PM.
11-19-2014, 03:08 PM
#240
Either don't have a rain day, or do.
If you decide to not have a rain day then don't advertise one on the entry form, and if rain does affect the proceedings then we go back to calling the event on 4 qualifiers if they were run. If 4 qualifiers were unable to be run, then it is a null event, in which case the National Champion from the year before is carry over.
If you decide to have a rain day and advertise it on your entry form then be prepared to use it. All entrants read the entry form so know that there is a possibility of using the rain day. It is then up to their own choice if they prepare for it by booking the extra day / accom. The hosting club should also be prepared to use it and have the people available to run it.
Below is my opinion:
This is the NATIONAL TITLES, the pinnacle of our sport... not wanting to be around for an extra day to get a proper result, or not being prepared to host the extra day is really not acceptable at this level to cut the event down. Queensland blatantly said they hadn't prepared for the possibility of using the Rain day, and quite a few of the state delegates hadn't booked the extra day which is why they didn't want to run the rain day and were prepared to call it a null event for Mod rather then using the rain day. I don't know why ACT didn't use the rain day as nothing has been communicated why this decision was made. It is the hosts responsibility to provide their best efforts to run 6 qualifiers and 3 finals. Which means if rain interrupts the proceedings then you use the rain day that was advertised. I believe that the same policy should be applied to State Titles as well.
The RD and SD's should base every decision on the concept of finishing 6 qualifiers and 3 finals for the Macca classes, whether they have a Rain Day available if it rains, or if not.
Rain was forecast for this years National Titles a week in advance. All entrants should of been notified that rain may affect proceedings, and that the non Macca classes may be reduced / cancelled to allow for the completion of the sanctioned classes. This also reminds the entrants that the Rain day may be used.
Sunday when racing was able to be resumed, the non Macca classes should of been held off (especially seeing they already had 4 quali complete) in favour of running 6 qualies for the sanctioned classes.
This would of meant an on time finish for Sunday and ALL the finals could be run on the Monday.
I know this post will upset people, and I'm sorry if it does. But this is my opinion not an attack. I also know that just posting about this, and not trying to do something about it is just barking at a keyboard... I for one am going to take a greater interest in the Macca rules, and if I feel that changes should be made will suggest them to my club to see if they will support an email to Macca to request a change.
If you decide to not have a rain day then don't advertise one on the entry form, and if rain does affect the proceedings then we go back to calling the event on 4 qualifiers if they were run. If 4 qualifiers were unable to be run, then it is a null event, in which case the National Champion from the year before is carry over.
If you decide to have a rain day and advertise it on your entry form then be prepared to use it. All entrants read the entry form so know that there is a possibility of using the rain day. It is then up to their own choice if they prepare for it by booking the extra day / accom. The hosting club should also be prepared to use it and have the people available to run it.
Below is my opinion:
This is the NATIONAL TITLES, the pinnacle of our sport... not wanting to be around for an extra day to get a proper result, or not being prepared to host the extra day is really not acceptable at this level to cut the event down. Queensland blatantly said they hadn't prepared for the possibility of using the Rain day, and quite a few of the state delegates hadn't booked the extra day which is why they didn't want to run the rain day and were prepared to call it a null event for Mod rather then using the rain day. I don't know why ACT didn't use the rain day as nothing has been communicated why this decision was made. It is the hosts responsibility to provide their best efforts to run 6 qualifiers and 3 finals. Which means if rain interrupts the proceedings then you use the rain day that was advertised. I believe that the same policy should be applied to State Titles as well.
The RD and SD's should base every decision on the concept of finishing 6 qualifiers and 3 finals for the Macca classes, whether they have a Rain Day available if it rains, or if not.
Rain was forecast for this years National Titles a week in advance. All entrants should of been notified that rain may affect proceedings, and that the non Macca classes may be reduced / cancelled to allow for the completion of the sanctioned classes. This also reminds the entrants that the Rain day may be used.
Sunday when racing was able to be resumed, the non Macca classes should of been held off (especially seeing they already had 4 quali complete) in favour of running 6 qualies for the sanctioned classes.
This would of meant an on time finish for Sunday and ALL the finals could be run on the Monday.
I know this post will upset people, and I'm sorry if it does. But this is my opinion not an attack. I also know that just posting about this, and not trying to do something about it is just barking at a keyboard... I for one am going to take a greater interest in the Macca rules, and if I feel that changes should be made will suggest them to my club to see if they will support an email to Macca to request a change.